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	<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?action=history&amp;feed=atom&amp;title=Noether%27s_theorems%2FExplainers%2FEquations_that_were_never_independent</id>
	<title>Noether&#039;s theorems/Explainers/Equations that were never independent - Revision history</title>
	<link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://invarians.org/index.php?action=history&amp;feed=atom&amp;title=Noether%27s_theorems%2FExplainers%2FEquations_that_were_never_independent"/>
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	<updated>2026-10-21T07:33:02Z</updated>
	<subtitle>Revision history for this page on the wiki</subtitle>
	<generator>MediaWiki 1.46.2</generator>
	<entry>
		<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Equations_that_were_never_independent&amp;diff=6664&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>PMA Publisher: Published from the Principia Machina source</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Equations_that_were_never_independent&amp;diff=6664&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2026-10-15T19:30:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Published from the Principia Machina source&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;table style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122;&quot; data-mw-interface=&quot;&quot;&gt;
				&lt;col class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; /&gt;
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				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;← Older revision&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;Revision as of 19:30, 15 October 2026&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l1&quot;&gt;Line 1:&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Line 1:&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{DISPLAYTITLE:Equations that were never independent}}&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{DISPLAYTITLE:Equations that were never independent}}&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;{{Noether&#039;s theorems map}}&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Mathematical counterpart: [[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Second theorem/The Noether identities|The Noether identities]].&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Mathematical counterpart: [[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Second theorem/The Noether identities|The Noether identities]].&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l92&quot;&gt;Line 92:&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Line 93:&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;No mathematics is used on this page. The mathematical treatment is on the&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;No mathematics is used on this page. The mathematical treatment is on the&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;counterpart page named above.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;counterpart page named above.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;−&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;del style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;&lt;/del&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-added&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>PMA Publisher</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Equations_that_were_never_independent&amp;diff=451&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>BFP Rauch: 1 revision imported</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Equations_that_were_never_independent&amp;diff=451&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2026-09-10T13:29:54Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;1 revision imported&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;table style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122;&quot; data-mw-interface=&quot;&quot;&gt;
				&lt;tr class=&quot;diff-title&quot; lang=&quot;en&quot;&gt;
				&lt;td colspan=&quot;1&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;← Older revision&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;td colspan=&quot;1&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;Revision as of 13:29, 10 September 2026&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-notice&quot; lang=&quot;en&quot;&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-diff-empty&quot;&gt;(No difference)&lt;/div&gt;
&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/table&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>BFP Rauch</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Equations_that_were_never_independent&amp;diff=450&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>NT&gt;NoetherVolumeBuild: Noether theorems volume, initial import (B-15)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Equations_that_were_never_independent&amp;diff=450&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2026-09-10T00:00:00Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Noether theorems volume, initial import (B-15)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;New page&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{DISPLAYTITLE:Equations that were never independent}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Mathematical counterpart: [[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Second theorem/The Noether identities|The Noether identities]].&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The second theorem&amp;#039;s output has a name in the later literature: the Noether&lt;br /&gt;
identities. This page says what sort of thing they are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A committee that is smaller than it looks ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Five people on a committee, five votes. But one member has a standing rule: she&lt;br /&gt;
always votes with the majority of the other four.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You have five votes and four decisions. The fifth vote is real, it is cast, it is&lt;br /&gt;
counted — and it tells you nothing you did not already know.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is the shape of a Noether identity. A theory has some number of equations of&lt;br /&gt;
motion. The second theorem says a certain number of them are, in this sense,&lt;br /&gt;
voting with the others. They are true. They are not extra.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== What kind of statement it is ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Compare with the first theorem&amp;#039;s output.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The first theorem says: a certain combination of things flows without piling up&lt;br /&gt;
anywhere. That is a statement that something is happening.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The second theorem says: a certain combination of things equals zero. That is a&lt;br /&gt;
statement that nothing is happening, and specifically that the pieces were never&lt;br /&gt;
free of each other in the first place.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Nothing flows. There is no current, there is no total, and there is nothing to&lt;br /&gt;
measure.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039; A reader who has met only the first theorem naturally expects a&lt;br /&gt;
conserved quantity to come out of the second, and the expectation is the single&lt;br /&gt;
most common source of error about it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The simplest case ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Draw a curve on paper and describe it by saying where your pen is at each moment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You had a free choice about pace — fast, slow, a pause in the middle. The curve&lt;br /&gt;
does not care. That freedom is the simplest possible local symmetry: one free&lt;br /&gt;
shape, and the rule does not even care how quickly your choice varies.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theorem promises, for that case, exactly one relation among the equations, of&lt;br /&gt;
the simplest kind. And that is what turns up: a single statement tying the&lt;br /&gt;
equations directly to one another, with no rates of change involved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The practical meaning is exactly what you would guess. A description of a curve&lt;br /&gt;
that never commits to a pace cannot determine its own pace. One of its equations&lt;br /&gt;
is therefore redundant, and the theorem tells you in advance that exactly one will&lt;br /&gt;
be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;That is not a flaw in the description. It is the cost of the freedom you&lt;br /&gt;
wanted.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039; You asked to describe a curve without committing to how it is traced,&lt;br /&gt;
and the redundancy is the bill.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The case that started everything ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In general relativity the free shape is your choice of coordinate labels, one&lt;br /&gt;
shape for each dimension of spacetime, so four in the world we live in. And the&lt;br /&gt;
rule cares not only about your labels but about how quickly they change from place&lt;br /&gt;
to place.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the theorem promises four relations among the field equations and their rates&lt;br /&gt;
of change.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Those four relations were already known before Noether&amp;#039;s paper. Hilbert had&lt;br /&gt;
asserted them for one particular scoring rule, and Klein had derived them&lt;br /&gt;
generally, and there was an argument at Göttingen about what they meant.&lt;br /&gt;
[[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/History/Hilbert and Klein|The history track]] tells that&lt;br /&gt;
story.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What Noether added was not the four relations. It was the theorem that has them as&lt;br /&gt;
one instance among many — and that says, in advance, exactly how many to expect for&lt;br /&gt;
any theory of this kind.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Both at once ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A theory can have both kinds of symmetry: global knobs and local shapes together.&lt;br /&gt;
Then both theorems apply, independently, and you get conserved quantities from one&lt;br /&gt;
and identities from the other. Neither interferes with the other.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Noether says this in a single sentence and it is the cleanest possible statement&lt;br /&gt;
that her two theorems are not rival readings of one result. They can both be true&lt;br /&gt;
of the same theory at the same time, and they say different things.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A word about the name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Noether calls them dependencies. The term &amp;quot;Noether identities&amp;quot; is later, and this&lt;br /&gt;
volume uses it because it is standard, while noting that it is not her word.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;#039;&amp;#039;No mathematics is used on this page. The mathematical treatment is on the&lt;br /&gt;
counterpart page named above.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>NT&gt;NoetherVolumeBuild</name></author>
	</entry>
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