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	<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?action=history&amp;feed=atom&amp;title=Noether%27s_theorems%2FExplainers%2FReading_the_second_theorem_backwards</id>
	<title>Noether&#039;s theorems/Explainers/Reading the second theorem backwards - Revision history</title>
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	<updated>2026-10-21T09:15:13Z</updated>
	<subtitle>Revision history for this page on the wiki</subtitle>
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	<entry>
		<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Reading_the_second_theorem_backwards&amp;diff=6668&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>PMA Publisher: Published from the Principia Machina source</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Reading_the_second_theorem_backwards&amp;diff=6668&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2026-10-15T19:30:34Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Published from the Principia Machina source&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;table style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122;&quot; data-mw-interface=&quot;&quot;&gt;
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				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;← Older revision&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;Revision as of 19:30, 15 October 2026&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l1&quot;&gt;Line 1:&lt;/td&gt;
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&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{DISPLAYTITLE:Reading the second theorem backwards}}&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{DISPLAYTITLE:Reading the second theorem backwards}}&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;{{Noether&#039;s theorems map}}&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Mathematical counterpart: [[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Second theorem/The converse of the second theorem|The converse of the second theorem]].&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Mathematical counterpart: [[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Second theorem/The converse of the second theorem|The converse of the second theorem]].&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l111&quot;&gt;Line 111:&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Line 112:&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;No mathematics is used on this page. The mathematical treatment is on the&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;No mathematics is used on this page. The mathematical treatment is on the&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;counterpart page named above.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;counterpart page named above.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
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&lt;/table&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>PMA Publisher</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Reading_the_second_theorem_backwards&amp;diff=459&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>BFP Rauch: 1 revision imported</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Reading_the_second_theorem_backwards&amp;diff=459&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2026-09-10T13:29:54Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;1 revision imported&lt;/p&gt;
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				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;Revision as of 13:29, 10 September 2026&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;4&quot; class=&quot;diff-notice&quot; lang=&quot;en&quot;&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-diff-empty&quot;&gt;(No difference)&lt;/div&gt;
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&lt;!-- diff cache key pma_cutover_20261020t051351z-soft_:diff:1.41:old-458:rev-459 --&gt;
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		<author><name>BFP Rauch</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Reading_the_second_theorem_backwards&amp;diff=458&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>NT&gt;NoetherVolumeBuild: Noether theorems volume, initial import (B-18)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://invarians.org/index.php?title=Noether%27s_theorems/Explainers/Reading_the_second_theorem_backwards&amp;diff=458&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2026-09-10T00:00:00Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Noether theorems volume, initial import (B-18)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;New page&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{DISPLAYTITLE:Reading the second theorem backwards}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Mathematical counterpart: [[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Second theorem/The converse of the second theorem|The converse of the second theorem]].&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Noether proved both her theorems in both directions. This page is the reverse of&lt;br /&gt;
the second one, and it is the direction working physicists actually use.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The reverse ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Forward: the theory has a local symmetry, therefore its equations have relations&lt;br /&gt;
among them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Reverse: the equations have relations among them, therefore the theory has a local&lt;br /&gt;
symmetry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why the reverse is the working direction ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You do not usually start by knowing a theory&amp;#039;s symmetries. You start with&lt;br /&gt;
equations somebody wrote down, often for reasons that had nothing to do with&lt;br /&gt;
symmetry, and you want to know what you are holding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So you count. How many equations, how many variables, and do the equations&lt;br /&gt;
determine everything? If you find that some of them follow from the others, the&lt;br /&gt;
reverse direction tells you what that means: there is a local symmetry in there,&lt;br /&gt;
and it is not an accident of how the equations were written.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is a diagnosis, not a curiosity. Finding a redundancy tells you that some of&lt;br /&gt;
your variables are description rather than physics, that your equations will not&lt;br /&gt;
determine everything, and that you will need to make a choice — fix a convention —&lt;br /&gt;
before you can compute anything. All of that is forced, and the reverse direction&lt;br /&gt;
is what tells you it is forced rather than a mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A restriction that turns out not to be one ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Before the reverse direction proper, Noether clears away an assumption she had&lt;br /&gt;
been making, and the argument for it is unusually pretty.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She had assumed the symmetry depends on your free shape in the simplest possible&lt;br /&gt;
way: draw twice the shape and you get twice the effect.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Suppose it did not. Suppose the effect involved the shape squared, or the shape&lt;br /&gt;
multiplied by how fast it varies.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do two of these transformations one after the other, and look at what comes&lt;br /&gt;
out. Terms appear that cannot be produced by any single free shape — they need&lt;br /&gt;
more shapes than you started with. But the family was supposed to be built from a&lt;br /&gt;
fixed number of free shapes, and now composing two of its members has produced&lt;br /&gt;
something outside it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So either the family was never closed under composition, in which case it was not&lt;br /&gt;
the sort of family we are discussing, or the complicated dependence was not there&lt;br /&gt;
after all.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;The simple dependence is not an assumption. It is forced by the requirement&lt;br /&gt;
that doing two symmetries in a row is a symmetry.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Getting the whole symmetry back ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reverse direction proper runs the forward proof backwards, and it recovers the&lt;br /&gt;
smallest steps of the symmetry — the infinitesimal version from&lt;br /&gt;
[[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Explainers/What a continuous symmetry is|the earlier page]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Getting from those back to the full-sized transformations is where Noether leans&lt;br /&gt;
on Lie, and it is real work rather than a formality: a result of his guarantees&lt;br /&gt;
that a family of smallest steps of this kind always belongs to a genuine family of&lt;br /&gt;
full-sized transformations, and that every one of those is built up out of the&lt;br /&gt;
small ones.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She notes one wrinkle. Sometimes you have to let your free shape change as you&lt;br /&gt;
build the transformation up, rather than holding it fixed and repeating. When you&lt;br /&gt;
can hold it fixed, everything is simpler.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And, as with&lt;br /&gt;
[[Noether&amp;#039;s theorems/Explainers/Reading the theorem backwards|the first theorem&amp;#039;s&lt;br /&gt;
reverse]], there is a case involving symmetries that depend on speeds where extra&lt;br /&gt;
care is needed before the same conclusions can be drawn.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== One more assumption removed ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Throughout, the free shapes were allowed to vary with position but not with the&lt;br /&gt;
quantities being described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Noether closes the section by showing that this too costs nothing. Allow the&lt;br /&gt;
shapes to depend on the quantities as well and you get relations of the same kind,&lt;br /&gt;
just more of them — and running the reverse direction on those brings you back to&lt;br /&gt;
the case already handled.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The same argument settles the mixed case, where a theory has global knobs and&lt;br /&gt;
local shapes at once, and with that the classification is complete.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How a symmetry gets discovered ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reverse direction is not only a diagnosis. It is sometimes how the symmetry is&lt;br /&gt;
found in the first place.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Somebody writes down equations for a new situation, often by analogy with&lt;br /&gt;
something already understood. They count: so many equations, so many quantities to&lt;br /&gt;
solve for. The count says the problem should be determined.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is not. Solutions come in families, differing in ways no measurement&lt;br /&gt;
distinguishes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
At that point the reverse direction says something definite. This is not a&lt;br /&gt;
mistake in the equations and not a shortage of data. There is a local symmetry in&lt;br /&gt;
the theory, it is the reason the solutions come in families, and it can be found&lt;br /&gt;
by asking which changes to the description leave every prediction alone.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Several of the symmetries at the centre of modern physics were identified along&lt;br /&gt;
exactly this route, from a redundancy noticed first and explained afterwards.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;#039;&amp;#039;No mathematics is used on this page. The mathematical treatment is on the&lt;br /&gt;
counterpart page named above.&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>NT&gt;NoetherVolumeBuild</name></author>
	</entry>
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